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Author Topic: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]  (Read 7067 times)

Lily

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What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« on: March 09, 2015, 03:56:40 PM »

I would like to know what the devs think about Casualisation in games.

The devs of the upcoming Camelot unchained have set up some foundational principles , one is about casualisation.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 02:44:34 AM by Dorist1 »
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yarnevk

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2015, 01:39:28 AM »

Interesting article, especially since I read much of the same stuff from ESO devs early on about no hand holding, fast travel, GPS waypoints etc.   Not surprising since they also was from the DAOC.   But as soon as the suits put the pressure on because of dropping sales/subs, this stuff started showing up.  It even has gone free to play with a store despite denials they would never do that to the ES fan. 

So I will believe someone is sticking to their guns once I see a game out on the market.  Personally I hoped that the kickstarted Ultima Online reboot (Shroud of the Avatars) was that game, then they started selling stuff like 'sickle of prosperity, never needs repair, gets more loot'  to get more pledges.  But they still state a similiar philosophy like that article.  Nobody wants to be a MMO like Wurm Online that has stuck with that hardcore play for a decade and has maybe a thousand players a day across all servers. 

For this game, the promised scenario editor should allow people to season their game server to their tastes,  I think having the multiverse server models where the rules are different the best way to go.  While some complain about the restocking store and fast travel, these are completely optional and easy to avoid entirely.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 01:41:46 AM by yarnevk »
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Lily

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2015, 10:46:59 AM »

Oh god, Wurm online, I wish it had a singleplayer. I like the pace of wurm online, but "online" is also its issue, because you basically have to "no Life" this game if  you want to achieve and keep some stuff. Since time on the server advances if you can not play. and being gone for 3 days is very unhealthy for your crops, and maybe some of your livestock.

In PE; the revival shots and fast travelling are borderline things for me already.

Vehicles are fast transport, and the monorail should be for this matter too. But fasttravelling makes all of this invalid simply by being faster and more efficient. This is one of the things I would definitely think is a very casualised feature.

And the revivalshots are also kinda weird edgy casualisation stuff. Being able to revive yourself several times with just having to wait 3 secs is a bit too easy. I spend like 30 of them killing one of the giant turtles with stupid iron bows.
Is that supposed to be? Where are challenges, and I mean challenges like: fail or success. And if you fail do it again.
But the revival shots make you basically fail x times until success comes anyways. This is in my opinion a bit over the edge what a game should have.

Then the game is named planet explorers. But there is very few in the Story mode to "explore". All the quest have a clear indicator where the quest has to happen. The lost guy at the giant tree, the supposed 3 crash positions in the jungle. All of them are indicated too accurately, there is no real "search" or "exploration" it's simple "go to the indicator on the map" quests.
Yes very convenient, and looks like many of the newer gamer generation don't have any patience for true "seek" quests anymore.
But then I wonder why are people playing games if quest are mostly annoying for them when they have to find something. Whats the entire sense to play a basically already finished quest.
I hate quest of the kind: collect 10 troll ears where somehow every 4Th troll only drops an ear. Those quests are nonsense of course. They are not a challenge and just extremely time consuming. Yet for some reason many people don't have an issue with these low niveau quests. But why? I don't know, because they are basically kill X mobs quests wrapped in different paper.

And people complain about mining speed. While in fact across all the Sandbox games PE has one of the fastest mining. It's also called adventure mode, and some complain about "not enough ore" or ore being to rare. I can find within 20 minutes more ore than one can even mine in a single days and that is a lot more than you can normally spend in a single day, unless you waste it completely. I can mine a lot ore in a small amount of time. and I am not a magically gifted player. Those people are either newbies not knowing how the game works or they are too lazy wanting to "challenge" mining. As if this even is some kind of challenge. I wonder why these people come and claim "it's too slow" Why are they in first place not like: "How can I make it faster" Or "is there a way to mine faster".  I bet half of them didn't even tried, they just want some casualisation.
But hey this is the adventure mode part of it is finding and mining for ore. The game offers a build mode, for those being too lazy dealing with mineral search. (something many other games don't even have).

At this point the question was directed to the Dev's because I wonder what they plan for the game. Listening to your customers may make you sell the game, but it may not automatically mean having a good game. There is always someone that thinks X is too slow or too hard. But when people get the feeling of "having finished the game" too early the game will also disappear too early. You need to keep people busy and entertained as well.

Terraria is still one of the most played games even after nearly 4 years. because Terraria does many many things incredibly right, yet terraria is not casualised.
Walk across your entire map, and if you do not bring a bed and basic home you have to walk those 10 minutes again if you die at this end of the map somewhere underground.
Mining deeper is getting harder, better pickaxes do revert this effect, yet they do not increase overall mining speed.
Specific areas challenge you, and when your characters equip advances, so does the world and it will make you die here and there as well, its not the superhard game (except some bosses) but its also not the easy game. And even with the high end equip you can not start to act entirely careless as in many other games.

A good game will attract a lot gamers, yet a game made for many players will not automatically be a good game (maybe a good product by sales). At trying to cater everyone, a game will eventually fail to deliver for anyone.

Currently PE is a great game, very enjoyable with a load of potential. Very unfinished, but hey it's alpha. I see what people demand, yet some of them are highly casualised features which I think will not make the game actually better.
And this is the reason why I want to know what the Dev's think about this, to estimate where the journey is going with this game.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 10:50:48 AM by Lily »
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yarnevk

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2015, 02:22:05 PM »

Devs have already said they have investors beyond hardcore kickstarters and are planning a world wide market, so they have both hardcore and casual features.  Do not use the casual features it becomes a much better game that lasts for hundreds of hours, not the buck an hour they target for the casuals.  Only if a casual feature request makes it less than a buck an hour would they not do it, but they are always made optional in single player with a bit of willpower to do things the hard way, and scenario editor should make rulesets possible for muliplayer.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 02:24:11 PM by yarnevk »
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Lily

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2015, 04:12:39 PM »

Well I doubt those over 3 million sold copy owners of terraria are entirely or majorly hardcore gamers.
Casualisation can go too far, When people start trying to figure out how basic things work because they want all this presented, then we probably do not even speak of casual gamers anymore.
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Luminaire

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2015, 05:59:59 AM »



In PE; the revival shots and fast travelling are borderline things for me already.

Vehicles are fast transport, and the monorail should be for this matter too. But fasttravelling makes all of this invalid simply by being faster and more efficient. This is one of the things I would definitely think is a very casualised feature.

And the revivalshots are also kinda weird edgy casualisation stuff. Being able to revive yourself several times with just having to wait 3 secs is a bit too easy. I spend like 30 of them killing one of the giant turtles with stupid iron bows.

This.... these are two elements of the game that i've dearly wished removed... I absolutely despise fast travel, as even when i play with a group of roleplayers, they destroy the emersion by fast traveling around. Sure. it's one of those things that you can "choose not to do", but can you really? sometimes forcing work is the only efficient way, as everyone succumbs to convenience at some point.

I would truly wish that in the future, they atleast increase the potential to server hosting to include things like disabling fast travel and revivalshots... Heck, i would not even mind if revivalshots worked but not on yourself. You could only use them on other players in multiplayer. If no one else was around you, you'd have to respawn at the last town you were in.

This game is a cakewalk.. There are too many elements that destroy any sense of risk and danger, and to me that is a game-killer. I'm one of those people with a "hardcore; if i die, destroy my items and eat my corpse" side to me at times, and this game just doesn't scratch that itch for me.. at all.

I love the game features. Absolutely adore them. I just wish it didn't feel like gmod all the time.
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MirecU

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2015, 08:55:26 AM »

Well I agree to a point, but IMHO the game in its current state is not ready for such changes (revival shots).
Not when you get instakilled when stepping on a ladder (using it) in MP, not when you get killed while mining underground from mobs on the surface you are not aware of (and does not need to be), etc..
Even spawning the spheres with your drop items to noone knows where when dying in a narrow tunnel underground is too annoying. I am not against punishment for making mistakes, but I am against it when its the result of the game being broken.

Fast travel> well.. when there were an option in MP that all players start in the same village then you can remove it. But when you want to play with friends and everyone spawns in another village (on the other part of the map) its quite useful to teleport to one village and start together from there.

Roleplay.... I love it.. but this game is not designed to really support it. :) Not with that kind of ingame chat and the absence of emotes. :) I kind of envy you that you have met some roleplayers, coz I have not yet met any and none of my friends is into it. :)
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yarnevk

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2015, 03:28:11 PM »

If the story of adventure was actually crash landed and have to explore to find other survivors, paralleling story mode then it would be stupid to start in the same place.  But as long as the story is the second colony wave that did not crash, it is a bit stupid that you cannot arrive on the same shuttle.  Of course many of us want the crash adventure rather than the safe landing adventure, so they need to get that done first.

But that whine of 'we want to start together and play with our friends' is the very casualization that article was talking about, it removes the sense of exploring a world, which should mean going on an adventure to find your friends.  Adventuring happens on the road, and not when you get to your destination, something most any print author already knows.  Old MMOS had that and was better games, it has only survived in the survival genre games, which are now getting popular enough that Sony is making one (H1Z1),  But it need not be exclusive to the PVP genre, it has its place in coop PVE.  The reason it was removed was because MMOs devs realized it was more efficient to use repeated scripted NPC mob interactions for more XP so people can grind up on the road (attack bears in Skyrim), in place of more natural AI.  So no surprise people want to skip the path to avoid stupid interactions, but they should give a game a chance that is actually working on more realistic predator/prey AI.

Of course arguing about it is never going to win anyone friends and converts, so it is best to conceed different playstyles with ruleset multiverse servers.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 03:39:54 PM by yarnevk »
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Lily

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2015, 04:21:35 PM »

Even not starting together is not that much of an issue currently. The starter positions are not entirely random, they are always close to the middle. so getting to each other is just running a bit.
You could still find an explanation why you crashed on the same spot, because you wee in the same life boat.

And yes the adventure is the way to the goal in a game, that's why I do not understand much of the casualisation, since most of this means cutting parts of the adventure off.
I the standard MMO people want to level as quick as possible, just to start complaining about the lack of new content. They speak of "endcontent" meaning raiding 40x the same dungeon for that 2% dropchance item being like 4% better than what they have. o.O When they have it, they scream for more content which is making the first rubbish item being stronger than the one they raided for month, being thrown away in 20 minutes.
Especially a game like planet EXPLORER should be more focused on the exploring.
I remember playing morrorwind for more than a entire year, and a lot before I even started the mainquest. Simply because there was so many stuff I just wanted to explore and see. And I played this game so endless hours, yet never had a golden saint dropping a daedric tower shield :/

A good game is not when people want to rush through the end and scream for more, a good game is where they want to see everything and scream for more when they have seen all.

PE would need some hidden secrets and stuffs in the multiplayer mode or specials to keep people seeking out the world. it's currently a bit empty or too repetitive. But its alpha stage so of course these specific things are not in the focus.

This is the only small thing where starbound went better than Terraria, the biome specific drops. If you seek out chests in these biomes to find some unique items. Or to see what other strange thing could be there. Everytime they make an update I return for this adventure, because new stuff may be there.

I prefer playing these games without wiki, because wikis are totally spoiling and destroying the adventurous obsession for the next and better or more awesome thing.

a game is great when I want to explorer every corner, because this is where the ultimate artifact could be. But even then getting there should be some kind of effort, and not a cakewalk, and it should be thrilling, yet not always rewarding. Sometimes the ruin i juts an empty ruin, sometimes it does have hidden an amazing item.

But many casualised games are so predictable. Ohh look a half brain hidden "secret" entrance. There must be something special, you go there and there is something special. But soon it does not feel special anymore, because its more or less "normal"

Skyrim for example made this causal, by indicating all the shrines already, by unifying the entire dragon shrines. Everything went way too predictable.
Dark messiah of Might and Magic & Titan Quest actually were the last games I played being really of the kind "I want to climb everywhere". And this was 2006 -.- is that when the industry buried this kind of gamedesign?
I want some more old styled games again, they were truly better games, they had more hearth and love in it, They felt less like a product and more like a true adventure.


I hope PE is putting some of that back giving it the explorer feeling the name carries.
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Luminaire

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2015, 10:00:36 PM »

Well I agree to a point, but IMHO the game in its current state is not ready for such changes (revival shots).
Not when you get instakilled when stepping on a ladder (using it) in MP, not when you get killed while mining underground from mobs on the surface you are not aware of (and does not need to be), etc..
Even spawning the spheres with your drop items to noone knows where when dying in a narrow tunnel underground is too annoying. I am not against punishment for making mistakes, but I am against it when its the result of the game being broken.

It's a horrible practice to base design decisions around bugs. You should never do that. Fix the bugs. End of. This is a discussion about an end-product nature, not working around bugs, so bugs shouldn't be a contributor.

All games that you control a character have roleplayability, and sandbox games mostly so. If you can't find roleplayability in a sandbox rpg like this, then that is on you :) There isn't a whole lot of driving content to go off of other than casual life of falling onto an alien planet, but that can still work for some roleplayers. I honestly don't roleplay that much on PE yet, but i did land myself into a PE roleplay group on steam. I've fallen a ways out of roleplaying myself over the last couple of years, but I still where it could be done.
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yarnevk

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2015, 01:53:12 AM »

BTW PE has its secrets off the beaten quest path.  There is (or was back in alpha .5/.6) giant skull cave with massive iron deposits that is a roosting nest for warbirds.

Even if it has been removed because it was not a quest destination (I hope not), when was the last time a quest sent you to the northwest grass lands and hills?  I guarantee you will have an adventure if you head that direction.  The mobs are more hostile out that way as well, there is way more to the grasslands than the quest triangle on the map.

The issue of dying from bugs is an issue for permadeath players, that is not the same thing as role playing exploration, just reload a save when that happens and save often.   Just do not save scum to take advantage of bad lucks in fights.  Do not use fast travel, and do not buy anything from NPCs except scripts, this becomes a very different game.

The most fun I had was when the death warp to home base was bugged in adventure mode, and it randomly respawned me somewhere.  It was on an iron poor world with lots of gold, and the only iron mine was protected by the giant mining bots.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 02:00:14 AM by yarnevk »
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Lily

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2015, 09:55:54 AM »

BTW PE has its secrets off the beaten quest path.  There is (or was back in alpha .5/.6) giant skull cave with massive iron deposits that is a roosting nest for warbirds.

Even if it has been removed because it was not a quest destination (I hope not), when was the last time a quest sent you to the northwest grass lands and hills?  I guarantee you will have an adventure if you head that direction.  The mobs are more hostile out that way as well, there is way more to the grasslands than the quest triangle on the map.

The issue of dying from bugs is an issue for permadeath players, that is not the same thing as role playing exploration, just reload a save when that happens and save often.   Just do not save scum to take advantage of bad lucks in fights.  Do not use fast travel, and do not buy anything from NPCs except scripts, this becomes a very different game.

The most fun I had was when the death warp to home base was bugged in adventure mode, and it randomly respawned me somewhere.  It was on an iron poor world with lots of gold, and the only iron mine was protected by the giant mining bots.

the standard user will use the fast travel if it is there, and this will cut of a lot of the "adventure feling". sometimes you have to force people playing a specific way, even if that is not the most convininent.

And currently a simple dual barrel gold laser is enough to deal with anything in PE. if you have an armor at steel 2 or above.

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MirecU

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2015, 10:19:39 AM »

As I see the adventure mode, you were not crash landing there. If you would you would start somewhere in the wild with some of the scripts. But you start in a village with all the scripts and housing for a week for free. So I kind of don't see the sense in starting in a random village in COOPERATION multiplayer game. What I said was that the players would have an option to chose the starting location. Even in hardcore Wurm Online you can chose your starting server and starting town.

There are 3 multiplayer modes - cooperation, survival and vs. All are practically the same with the difference in how the score is calculated. IMHO it would be better if they were changed a bit - cooperation would be the same, but with the option to chose the starting town/starting in the same town as you are a group of people that came together on a ship and their goal is to work together. And the survival would be an unscripted equivalent of story mode - you crashed on a planet, start randomly in wild with only a few scripts to make basic tools and you are on your own to survive - to find towns, get better scripts, etc.

That said I was not whining about to start with my friends together. :) Just to make all these features (revival shots, fast traveling, option to chose your starting town in cooperation) optional in the server settings. Like yarnevk said it himself. :)

What I misunderstood was that I did not thought you were talking about the finished game and wanted these features as soon as possible. Ok, my bad. Then I am all for these changes. I personally don't use fast travel and my first thought about the revival shots were the same as Lily's. And I find it a ridiculous choice of devs to listen to the whiners and give the players in adventure mode all scanner chips from the start. :) I hope that will change soon.

Luminaire> lol... there is a little misunderstanding - I was talking about roleplaying in a group of players. :) The most important thing in roleplaying as a group IMHO is to have a way to communicate. And what I meant by "this game is not designed to really support it" is that it has a really crappy chat system in multiplayer and if you really want to effectively communicate with other players you have to use third party systems. My bad, I should have to phrase it better. :) But I agree with you on all what you said about roleplay. ;)
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Luminaire

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2015, 11:02:09 AM »

As I see the adventure mode, you were not crash landing there. If you would you would start somewhere in the wild with some of the scripts. But you start in a village with all the scripts and housing for a week for free. So I kind of don't see the sense in starting in a random village in COOPERATION multiplayer game. What I said was that the players would have an option to chose the starting location. Even in hardcore Wurm Online you can chose your starting server and starting town.
This was posted very recently on the steam forum. I don't know if it was you or someone else, but at that time it occurred to me that having people spawn all in the same spot by default would give griefers a ride of their lifetime... But i can definately agree with the possability of a dropship option... to drop you in a town of your choosing somewhere in the vicinity of the spawnable towns, rather than just it being random. That would allow friends to meet up much easier, and prevent the whole one-spawn-easy-grief issue.

Luminaire> lol... there is a little misunderstanding - I was talking about roleplaying in a group of players. :) The most important thing in roleplaying as a group IMHO is to have a way to communicate. And what I meant by "this game is not designed to really support it" is that it has a really crappy chat system in multiplayer and if you really want to effectively communicate with other players you have to use third party systems. My bad, I should have to phrase it better. :) But I agree with you on all what you said about roleplay. ;)

I see! it is no problem at all, i'm sorry i misunderstood :) From what i've seen though, the new UI should remedy that issue. Rather than the little chat bubble and tiny window, it's going to be a text area on the bottom left like you see in pretty much every online game you play, so it should be much much easier.

the standard user will use the fast travel if it is there, and this will cut of a lot of the "adventure feling". sometimes you have to force people playing a specific way, even if that is not the most convininent.

And currently a simple dual barrel gold laser is enough to deal with anything in PE. if you have an armor at steel 2 or above.

This indeed.... People just coming into the game are more common than not going to use the feature without reason to consider what it means, simply because it's there. Before they know it, the game is feeling boring and half the features (vehicles) are already pointless beyond just for fun, or OP weapons. By the time they realize that and make the choice to not use it, they've already missed out on the experience because they've already done things.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 11:06:03 AM by Luminaire »
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Lily

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Re: What does Pathea think about casualisation.[marked]
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2015, 03:54:02 PM »

The game has massive potential.
I am not sure about adventure mode, those NPC towns hardly make sens,e I think they are placeholders.
it would be great if actual maps in Adventure would have more settlements like the martian colony, and the palyer is able to setup multiple colonies, or at leats able to designate and design oen and hand them over to npc control after this, before a player continues to settle somewhere else.

Wecould have different Dropmodes:

Landing mode: you and your co-players are starting at the same position.
Crash mode: you and your co-players start scattered aroudn different life boats.

Then we could have "starting" periods.

Scout period:
there are no colonies set before, its in the same time as the crash and the map is "raw". You will find various npc's to colonise the map at lifeboats/camps (crashed and uncrashed).
You can also build a landing beacon, which demands another dropship from space. Brining in new npc's from the orbit. (logic: they are from the second wave - martian fleet)

Settle period: There are no or only rare crashed dropships/camps on the map, therefore sattlements as in the current adventure mode do already exist, beign inhabitated by npc's

All those features can anways be just a togle or slider bar, making the generator of the workl also create these objects or not. Should not be too hard to implement and would give people a reason for replayability by havign different setups, or creating a world more into their desire.

The current settlements and alian camps look very much like placeholders.

the standard user will use the fast travel if it is there, and this will cut of a lot of the "adventure feling". sometimes you have to force people playing a specific way, even if that is not the most convininent.

And currently a simple dual barrel gold laser is enough to deal with anything in PE. if you have an armor at steel 2 or above.

This indeed.... People just coming into the game are more common than not going to use the feature without reason to consider what it means, simply because it's there. Before they know it, the game is feeling boring and half the features (vehicles) are already pointless beyond just for fun, or OP weapons. By the time they realize that and make the choice to not use it, they've already missed out on the experience because they've already done things.

Maybe, mabye some will just leave the game after having end story mode and not go into the "non easy" mode.
Thats why I think sometimes you need to force people to use a feature before they start to recognize the feature is actually fun. And playing the game a second time with these features is till not the same experience, because you already know all the story. The "first time" is what makes people recognise a game to be special or not.
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