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Author Topic: The Meat Coin  (Read 16447 times)

dbrooksby

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The Meat Coin
« on: July 29, 2014, 09:56:32 PM »

i actually think this game has a lot of really exiting things going for it. i was wondering though, is using meat as currency a placeholder? it seems like a cool concept if its supposed to be a survival type game, but i cant help thinking that it falls a bit short. even if all there currency was destroyed or lost in the crash, or if they just decided to adopt something else as a standard unit for there bater system... meat, as valuable as it would be, would make a poor currency. its heavy, meat from different animals would have different values. its hard to measure accurately and most importantly it spoils. Even though MOST other games overlook one or all of these issues when dealing with food in there games, using the meat as though it was a coin or credit seems a bit different. Though it seems pretty standard in games carrying around a bag of 10,000 gold coins is unrealistic, but buying a jetpack with a pile of rotting meat the size of the great pyramids seems like a different kind of crazy.
    if what we are trying to do is move away from using "money" than what if everything is just assigned a "value" and the trade dialog has a Trade Box where you place the items to be bartered, and a value at the top. you try and make everything balance out. if you want a jetpack, and all you have is a bunch of meat, you place the jetpack in the trade window along with enough meat to bring the balance to zero. or if you wanted to pay in stone, or a combination of herbs and med-packs you can place anything in to the trade box to use in place of currency. like a real barter system.... that would shift the importance of meat to just another in game item and not a pinnacle of the games economy so i could more easily excuse the issues i expressed about its practicality, but still allow us to continue using meat as money if thats what we wanted, or to start using diamonds, or flowers. i think it would make the trading and survival aspect of the game more believable.
     i think this is a great game so far and im exited to see what the devs do with it. if meat IS just a placeholder than great, if not... oh well, its still a great game.
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Trent

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2014, 12:45:23 AM »

This thread might interest you. http://board.pathea.net/index.php?topic=6321.0

As you might read within, I completely agree with you.  :D
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dbrooksby

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2014, 05:54:09 AM »

yeah, i posted the same thing on the steam discussion site, and its getting some replies there but im betting its just a placeholder because it seems to bother most folks. my point is that they would almost certainly have brought some form of currency with them, but for whatever reason have decided not to use it. perhaps all they had was credit cards and without access to there network its impossible to use, or perhaps they just decided in light of the circumstances to abandon there old money and reset the playing field taking the advantage from previously wealthy survivors who preform no valuable function in the new society. starting over with a new payment system might be a really good idea in this sort of circumstance.
All im saying is ether stick with the barter system, or choose something more practical. if your going to straight up substitute dollars for an item, choose something a bit better suited to the task. fallout did bottlecaps, though they still have shortcomings as a currency, it fits FAR better than meat. its small, so you can carry a lot of them, it wont spoil, its not to soft or delicate, and it can be separated down to a single unit that is similar to any other single unit of the same currency. im not saying pick a better currency, im saying go back to the barter system. substituting the word "dollar" for the word meat, is just a bit far to stretch the imagination. or if you choose something, pick something better suited to be a form of money...
antibiotics perhaps? they could be something of more value than food considering all the animals that a re running about. perhaps without the main ship, its much harder to collect the resources and fabricate antibiotics, and with all the microbes on the new planet that humans have not had time to adapt to, going without antibiotics could kill. now its scarcer than food, but just as important for survival, much easier to carry and conceal, and it will not rot like meat. if you have to use a "currency" chose something that works better than meat.
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yarnevk

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2014, 12:21:02 PM »

Your main objection to this is not even relevant, this is a sci-fi technology game in which you have a replicator that relies on digital storage for materials.  Meat does not spoil because you are not carrying meat in the backpack, you are recording the molecular pattern for every meat you find.   The replicator in this game has the restriction that it cannot synthesize any molecular pattern (making it differ from StarTrek tech), it always needs a molecular pattern on file.   

So when you trade things you are actually trading the molecular pattern digitally.   Of course that restriction is there because this is a game that does not want you to have duped items (though there have been dupe bugs), but at least they have some plot as to why you can carry entire dump trucks of materials in your backpack, and it makes a ton more sense than alien animals dropping earth coins like every other lazy fantasy RPG would do. If they ever want to restrict the inventory for survival they can just say it drains the battery or has limited storage, and they already added a base replicator for game balancing being able to make big things.

Using meat is thus consistent with the rules of the world.  Today's Earth reality does not apply, though the idea was adapted from dried/salted/frozen meat which has historically been used as barter currency because it does not spoil.  Not everybody needs antibiotics because not everyone is sick, only the doctors would be the interested in trading for those; but most everybody needs to eat meat, even if they are vegetarian they will have meat eater friends to trade with. 

The reason that meat it used is that all RPG are combat focused, nobody wants to get rewarded for flower picking they want to get rewarded for killing mobs.  They could not use bones because not all mobs have bones, but they did account for different mobs with drop specials, some of which have no game systems yet for any player value. It is not a placeholder, it is a well researched and thought out original design, just like they did a lot of evolution research when it came to creating flora/fauna,  they did spend time thinking about the design of the game.

Now if you are going to rehash an argument you should do a search and see if there is not already a long thread from not even less than a month ago for you to add your thoughts to it, because not everybody is going to repost their arguments like I will.  But I am not going to rehash  that after the colony base stage they can add some faction association using faction credits with meat exchanges because it already has been hashed out before.  While the devs do read suggestions and respond by things showing up in game if it fits their design visions and resources, they have said they are not going to pay attention to retread threads at all.

So if you are to design the system that
A) rewards players for killing mobs like every RPG does
B) is more logical than alien mobs dropping earth/mars coins
C) accounts for replication inventory system
D) available right after the crash landing

There really is not much of a solution left other than meat.  Fur and shells and chitin and feathers and fins all become extra trades becomes the only thing every alien mob logically has is meat.  This is why you just happened to crash with Gerdy the nutritionist who says at the start of the game, the meat is safe because of similar evolution path, but to be safe from microbes has you run it thru the replicator and you cannot eat raw meat.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 01:06:52 PM by yarnevk »
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dbrooksby

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 08:14:52 PM »

i think you misunderstand my main objection. its not that meat is to large, although that is part of it. its that meat makes a lousy currency. but your explanation actually answers quite a few of my objections. i had not realized that it was storing everything "digital", i had assumed that you carried the objects around, gathered physical resources and then used the replicator to arrange its matter in to more useful configurations. if the storage is actually INSIDE the replicator, than i can imagine that it would be able to doll out exact portions of meat, re arrange the composition of the meat in to a consistent and useful variety and it would protect the meat from any damage or spoilage. therefore making it in to a much better candidate for currency.

but if all it is doing is using the matter to make a digital instruction than why is it necessary to gather more than one unit of each type of material?  even if it is storing ALL the "actual matter" you collect in digital form, why couldn't you take that digital file and copy it?

and if it is so easy to scan and store huge amounts of matter inside the replicator, than why do we bother with hacking away at a tree with an iron axe? why not just scan the tree?

why is it so important that all mobs drop currency? most other RPG's just have the mobs drop whatever then you can sell the weapons, meat, bones, clothing, feathers, or whatever that particular mob drops for the in game currency.


So if you are to design the system that
A) rewards players for killing mobs like every RPG does
B) is more logical than alien mobs dropping earth/mars coins
C) accounts for replication inventory system
D) available right after the crash landing


i did that. i suggested antibiotics.

"antibiotics perhaps? they could be something of more value than food considering all the animals that a re running about. perhaps without the main ship, its much harder to collect the resources and fabricate antibiotics, and with all the microbes on the new planet that humans have not had time to adapt to, going without antibiotics could kill. now its scarcer than food, but just as important for survival, much easier to carry and conceal, and it will not rot like meat."

you could collect the resources and fabricate it with the replicator. you could say that the impact during the attempted landing tore open the main ships medical bay and spilled canisters of medication that have landed randomly across the continent, so you could come across crates of supplies and medication, or crates of anything really.

but whatever system they use is not going to be free of theoretical issues. no game ever is. and if what they want to do is make a game that has replicators that can store matter digitally, but cant copy it, and they want to use meat as currency, than im actually ok with that. and your explanation was a hell of a lot better than the hords of other posts that i did read before posting this, that summarized the issue in to people saying meat is dumb kuz it rots, and meat is a good currency because its valuable in a survival situation. if one of my biggest criticisms of there game design so far is something as petty as there choice of currency, well than i think this is shaping up to be a pretty great game no mater what there goals for an in game economy. i just thought it was a good suggestion and i still do.
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yarnevk

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2014, 10:41:31 PM »

Open up your wallet do you have any coins or dollars in there?  Like most of first world society today currency is no longer used because we use ATM cards, certainly in the future it will be solely electronic credits, like a bitcoin is already.   Now imagine what happens when the network goes out, you will be completely screwed because your money is actually just a credit, and you cannot get to it if the ATM goes out (a big part of the plot is the network interference on Maria)   So what happens when you crash the ship and need to survive, you use something physical everybody needs that can be found on the planet as currency, because that credit chip in your pocket is just a piece of useless plastic.

You entirely ignored my comments that the reason it is meat and not flowers needed for heals is that they want to reward people for combating mobs, not for running around picking flowers.  If you want to buy that new armor it makes it a lot more fun in a game to go kill stuff.   Of course they have a buy and sell window so if you think it is more logical to pick flowers, then sell your flowers get a meat credit and buy the armor.    If you want a central barter currency you want to use the most common thing most everyone needs which is meat, whereas only sick and hurt people need antibiotics so it does not work out as well for trades.  In a barter society you do not use the most valuable thing which is what antibiotics are, you use the most common thing as your reference so that trades will more easily be done.  Now if it was a real barter exchange buyer/sellers needs will vary, maybe somebody and everybody they know has already enough meat, and actually needs flowers, but that requires an NPC economy and PC/faction attributes that are not planned for the game.   Of course in a multiplayer server you are free to use whatever trade currency you want with other player trades, but it is not enough of an MMO for that, if you are playing with your friends you will probably just give them stuff.

The reason you cannot copy replications and always need resources is simply that is the design of the replicator for no other reason it serves the game mechanics, (called McGuffins in movies when a thing is there only to serve the story) because games that let you dupe without any work are broken games.  Its the same reason it is not an energy based replicator like StarTrek, because what fun is a survival game that you rarely need to collect crystals and can make anything without any work.  Even StarTrek is guilty of the McGuffin, when Worf was on the Enterprise bridge away from his DS9 series post because he had to be there because he was already contracted for the movie, they just waved it off and he mumbled something like since I am here I can man weapons... But if you need a 'reason' just say the copy protection police want their royalties for the replication technology everytime you replicate something, and shut down those who copy.  After all its the exact same reason you cannot distribute a copy of the game!

But if you need a better reason for not copying you can say it is quantum storage.   Quantum communications are already being researched because they are impossible to copy because of the Heisenberg principle that the information changes with observation (don't ask me how you read what you write then, I guess that is why it is still in research)

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:58:16 PM by yarnevk »
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Silentone98

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2014, 11:52:50 PM »

yea... the replicator's storage is more like a personal magical dimension portal and not really a digital storage. I feel the whole concept about the damn thing is no better than a lazy cop out.
Being able to be lazy about currency being meat, and justify it by this magical storage is just as bad.

Now don't get me wrong.... I am not calling the devs lazy... im calling this particular area of the game poorly thought out. I completely disagree with Yarnevk about this being a well thought out decision.
It's obvious meat is the way it is, because it was easy to implement and made only some level of sense and they had an easy excuse to do so with the replicator....

Yarnevk, you presented a list here that you claim only meat fits well.... But this was already presented before as a solution. True bartering, no base unit.
That means possibility of lose/gain beyond the normal and satisfies every condition. This is also more immersive as you look for better deals and have to actually think about your transactions. Obviously everything would have a value comparatively to everything else.... which means measuring everything in the same way meat is currently measuring everything. But this value doesn't need to be in the form of an item at all.

Just do the fallout bartering, and you can even implement faction money down the line somewhere, seamlessly.
I imagine it would also be rather easy to reflect a factions feelings towards the player thru that system, adjusting values in favor of one side.
Right now, you go to a martian camp and they are all "OMG you earthen scum! I HATE YOUR KIND!" yet, ask them to follow or trade and its like they didn't mean a word of it.



BUT, that's just my 2 cents... as mentioned on the other thread, I don't find this to be too big a deal. It would definitely be nice tho.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:08:01 AM by Silentone98 »
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dbrooksby

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 05:34:27 AM »

im not saying that coming up with a new currency makes no sense, they may not be able to use there "digital currency" (though if they can store and retrieve literally anything else digitally with the replicator, why not money?) or perhaps they just want to get rid of the old currency to level the playing field for everyone ant take the advantage away from previously wealthy colonists who preform no real function. there are lots of reasons to change to a new currency.

and i didn't ignore your comments about "the reason it is meat and not flowers", i just dis agreed with them. every mob does not have to drop "money" to be a reward. by that logic you aren't being rewarded for killing the aliens or the robots. they don't drop meat. they drop bullets and other stuff, and there much harder to kill than a common animal. the reward should be larger. and you receive no "reward" for mining, i can dig a hole as deep as i want and i never dig up any meat! and with good reason. that would be silly. but i am rewarded by getting stone and dirt and marble that i can sell for meat, then i can buy whatever i want with the meat. but i do receive a reward for mining and it is a main feature of the game and well worth doing. so monsters can drop ANYTHING AT ALL, and as long as you can use it, or sell it, it would be a reward for combating mobs. it can even still be meat, but that is not a good reason to make meat a currency in my opinion.

If you want a central barter currency you want to use the most common thing most everyone needs which is meat, whereas only sick and hurt people need antibiotics so it does not work out as well for trades.  In a barter society you do not use the most valuable thing which is what antibiotics are, you use the most common thing as your reference so that trades will more easily be done.

 oxygen.... oxygen is the most common thing that everyone needs on this planet. even more common than earth.. why not use oxygen as a currency? oh right, because its to common, and it has many other properties that make it a poor form of currency. just like meat. with all the animals roaming about meat is super common. and even though its a better choice than oxygen, its pretty far down on the list of things that i would want to use as money if the choice were up to me.

and you are correct, not everyone is sick, so not everyone needs antibiotics. but what happened when the Spaniards landed in the Americas for the first time? the majority of the native population was wiped out from small pox. something that the Spaniards carried and had a strong natural resistance to. the natives who had no chance to develop such a resistance died. so if we arrived on a new world, is it any stretch of the imagination to say there might be deceases that would do the same to us? and if we had an antibiotic that killed the foreign microbes than EVERYONE would need it to stay alive. wouldn't that be something valuable? i don't see how this is a bad idea. and it would be a pretty simple coding swap. or switch to just a normal barter system with no common currency. that would be more accurate, but a much harder switch for the developer. or just explain the situation a bit better through game dialog.

The reason you cannot copy replications and always need resources is simply that is the design of the replicator for no other reason it serves the game mechanics, (called McGuffins in movies when a thing is there only to serve the story) because games that let you dupe without any work are broken games.  Its the same reason it is not an energy based replicator like StarTrek, because what fun is a survival game that you rarely need to collect crystals and can make anything without any work.  Even StarTrek is guilty of the McGuffin, when Worf was on the Enterprise bridge away from his DS9 series post because he had to be there because he was already contracted for the movie, they just waved it off and he mumbled something like since I am here I can man weapons... But if you need a 'reason' just say the copy protection police want their royalties for the replication technology every time you replicate something, and shut down those who copy.  After all its the exact same reason you cannot distribute a copy of the game!

i agree that there are some things that you just have to accept as part of the game. in minecraft it makes no sense that you can carry a whole inventory of stone and build yourself a castle by whipping it out of your pocket. you just have to accept that as a game mechanic, and ill accept that in planet explorers as well, but if they are truly trying to say that it suddenly makes sense because the matter is converted to some kind of 'digital form" witch is itself impossible, but at least a new and interesting explanation, and one im prepared to accept for the sake of "game mechanics" im just saying that it makes no sense to me that they would come up with a system that solves one problem only to bring up several more.  "the digital copy police" i mean really they crash landed on an alien planet. if i were stranded and dying a copyright infringement lawsuit would hardly be a deterrent.

is the information you shared about how the replicator works in the game? or on there website? i cant seem to find anything explaining it in as much detail as you have. perhaps its something you pieced together and figured out yourself?
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yarnevk

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2014, 11:53:24 AM »

The devs themselves said they tested a physical inventory system, and it basically broke the game because the replicator becomes unuseable.   They are adding scenario editors for those who want to limit their inventory, but they are not balancing the game nor writing story for it.   You missed the entire point of the mcguffin, which is you do not invest plot to explain something that only exists to forward the plot.  Since Hitchcock was a master at this it is not a writing crutch by lazy hacks, it is used all the time in scifi because they do not want to bore their audience with technical details of technology that does not exist only to get picked apart by the internetz that they got their non existent science wrong.  Do you ask how warp engines and transporters work on StarTrek, or do you just enjoy the story when it breaks down because Wesley did something wrong and he has to fix it because that is the story they wanted to tell?

And I do not support the more realistic bartering, but the devs cannot manage to do any better NPC AI than what we have, and the PCs are not being designed with character attributes that can affect bartering because the design of the game improves the char only with technology. There are way worse AI problems to fix than merchants knowing if their camp needs meat or flowers more.  Not going to discuss barter any further because it has already been hashed out in the other thread last month.   The devs are not working on it and have no plans in that area, because meat gets the job done.   Even Skyrim dropped the idea of more realistic bartering that was in Morrowind, so harkening back to classic attribute PC with relationship AI NPCs is something nobody does anymore, as I said in the other thread players complain when they cannot get what they want now, so 'no soup for you because I don't like you' has been removed from video games.   I have seen a lot of Skyrim mods attempt more realistic barter systems and they all have failed and never got finished because of how extensive economy simulations are, and of course they are save destroyers to even think about switching them out because of their massive game changes they make.

Once you have to pick a thing as a baseline so people know how much 'money' they have, then as I said the most logical thing to pick is something related to combat for simply no other reason than it is a video game in which combat is the primary activity.   If you want it to be flowers or dirt instead then wait for the scenario editor.  Just be prepared for whiners not playing your server because you are 'forcing' them to mine or pick flowers to make 'money' because we already have people complain they are 'forced' to resource now (even though they can trade meat for resources, a stupid feature intended to shut them up but it does not shut them up).  Oxygen itself makes no sense because it does not need to be resource gathered, but maybe on the moons or waterworld it would make sense.

Here is a research university studying quantum communications/storage (or rather the first random google link on it because I do not care to research it further).  Because of its very nature it cannot be intercepted nor copied, it is being worked on to eventually make a totally secure point to point internet.   But this is way over the head of even most scientists and not needed to explain in a video game where it is only used as the McGuffin to explain your massive no copy inventory because the entire point of a McGuffin is you waste no plot time trying to explain it.   So what if it is no different than the D&D 'bag of holding' in game mechanics, because that is the point of it to begin with is to have that mechanic because it makes for a better game.   If you don't like it then wait for the scenario editor where you can limit it or tie it to power drain.

http://www.gtqi.gatech.edu/researchOverview.shtml

The question of why digital currency does not work is answered in the plot itself.   Comms does not work due to marian interference.   Any 'money' stored in the network got lost when the mothership crashed on the other continent.  When terrorists take out the internet and start the zombie apocalypse those invested in bitcoin are going to feel like idiots because it will not matter how many bitcoins your thumb drive has on it, because it is the network that validates your bitcoins.   So they can only do point to point PC/NPC transfers from replicator storage which is a logical reason to add faction credits later on with each camp using some different base, requiring exchanges because they are not able to communicate globally.   They are working on factions more so that might suffice as a replacement for the lack of character attributes which is pretty much where the other thread left it that it makes sense to move to colony credits away from meat after you make your colony base.   Of course comms being down is nothing more than a McGuffin itself to force you to have to explore the planet, so that this does not turn into an RTS of you giving commands to take out the alien base from a distance, you have to go there yourself. 

While they could add story resolution to why comms are down, it is actually a better story if you never find out what happened to the Marians and why they ruined the planet technologies, that it always remains something of a mystery forcing you to blunder along. This is where Lucas went of the rails, it was a better story when it was the mysterious 'Force' rather than boring us with the details as he did in the prequels with midichlorians.  He broke the writers rules that you should never try to explain the McGuffin.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:41:16 PM by yarnevk »
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Zifei

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2014, 03:26:23 PM »

On this topic, all I can say is we haven't really talked about it too much, so it could go anywhere from here.  ;)

The original idea was to switch to another currency once you establish trade with other colonies/natives...but, that's pretty hard to balance, and we don't know if people will actually like that.
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yarnevk

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2014, 04:17:13 PM »

Zifei

That idea is pretty much what the prior thread linked here ended up on, pages of discussion on colony credits to ponder there.   Of course I do see people not liking it if they side with one faction and they other shop keepers say meat only your traitors credits is no good here, but probably just as many of us liked Morrowinds system where that did happen.  But there is not much point putting in a colony barter system if it can be bypassed, so it would have to be a configurable option I think.  It could get really complicated fast, like if you hire docs assistants and they are not there to gather flowers then he needs flowers but not much meat as he is old and does not eat that much, otherwise if they stay he has plenty of flowers and needs meat to feed his camp because they are better at flower picking than hunting (even more complicated if you consider random NPC skillsets).    Just don't change it to Marioworld killing mobs that drop floating gold coins just because people liked Nintendo.

I personally want to make 'peace' with the natives and take all that valuable bling off their hands, surely they need more stag sausage in return for some dead mech parts,  just like the Spanish did in the New World gotta first exploit them so they are easier to kill later.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 04:40:41 PM by yarnevk »
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dbrooksby

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2014, 07:05:31 PM »

The devs themselves said they tested a physical inventory system, and it basically broke the game because the replicator becomes unuseable.   They are adding scenario editors for those who want to limit their inventory, but they are not balancing the game nor writing story for it.   You missed the entire point of the mcguffin, which is you do not invest plot to explain something that only exists to forward the plot.  Since Hitchcock was a master at this it is not a writing crutch by lazy hacks, it is used all the time in scifi because they do not want to bore their audience with technical details of technology that does not exist only to get picked apart by the internetz that they got their non existent science wrong.  Do you ask how warp engines and transporters work on StarTrek, or do you just enjoy the story when it breaks down because Wesley did something wrong and he has to fix it because that is the story they wanted to tell?

again, my main issue is that meat makes a poor currency, not simply that it is to heavy. every game i can think of (that uses an object for currency) allows you to carry more cash than you could realistically. However that is a valid point, and i understand that if the developers do not want to take the time to come up with a realistic economy, they shouldn't and cant be forced to. if the currency system in this game is a miguffin and not "a well researched and thought out original design" than thats just fine, but suggesting alternative ideas that make better sense than there miguffin and would be relatively easy to implement might just make for a better game.but perhaps they are of the opinion that if they make money something silly and easy to acquire and not a solid part of the gameplay, people will spend more time focusing on the aspects of the gameplay that they think is more important. perhaps they just aren't making a game for economists...? and if thats it than thats fine i guess.

Here is a research university studying quantum communications/storage (or rather the first random google link on it because I do not care to research it further).  Because of its very nature it cannot be intercepted nor copied, it is being worked on to eventually make a totally secure point to point internet.   But this is way over the head of even most scientists and not needed to explain in a video game where it is only used as the McGuffin to explain your massive no copy inventory because the entire point of a McGuffin is you waste no plot time trying to explain it.   So what if it is no different than the D&D 'bag of holding' in game mechanics, because that is the point of it to begin with is to have that mechanic because it makes for a better game.   If you don't like it then wait for the scenario editor where you can limit it or tie it to power drain.

http://www.gtqi.gatech.edu/researchOverview.shtml

this link is simply referring to the development of a "quantum computer" that uses the quantum state of an atom to store information, not to actually store the atom or matter. in a traditional computer we use microprossesors made up of thousands or millions of transistors that can each store a 1 or a 0 to make calculations and store information. this is what we cal "digital". But because a quantum computer uses the quantum state of an atom to store information or do its calculations its not limited to a 1 and 0, it has MANY more possible states and therefore becomes thousands of times more powerfull than our silicone chips. but it still cant "digitaly sore atoms" rather it uses atoms to "digitally store information" though im not sure it can accurately be called digital.
when you say that it can not be intercepted or copied you are referring to the "Heisenberg principle" that you referenced earlier. and as you pointed out it can be pretty dang hard to tell what the state of each Quantum is without CHANGING its state, so they use something called "Quantum entanglement" this is the part that is above everyones head. all anyone can figure out is that if you can get these atoms "entangled" you can separate them by distances as large as several miles and they retain there relationship to each other, so if you give one a spin, the other one that is far away begins instantly (yes faster than light) to spin in the opposite direction. you can use this relationship to determine the "state" of your Quantum computer instantly without violating the "Heisenberg principle" over large distances. but because it seems to violate our current understanding of the laws of physics, and we understand almost nothing about how or why this relationship between the atoms exist, we cant "intercept" the signal in the same way we can intercept a cell phone call by cloning its sim card, or a tv show by hacking our cable box. so its secure. that makes it perfect for a "secure internet" its all vary fascinating stuff, but it doesnt really apply to "digitally storing atoms".

and as for "The question of why digital currency does not work is answered in the plot itself." this only answers the question of why any original Digital currency from the mothersip wouldn't work, but if a replicator can keep track of anything else digitally, why cant it keep track of credits? im not a fan of the idea of digital currency in the game, but i dont think it can be ruled out as un-feasible or impossible.

While they could add story resolution to why comms are down, it is actually a better story if you never find out what happened to the Marians and why they ruined the planet technologies, that it always remains something of a mystery forcing you to blunder along. This is where Lucas went of the rails, it was a better story when it was the mysterious 'Force' rather than boring us with the details as he did in the prequels with midichlorians.  He broke the writers rules that you should never try to explain the McGuffin.

i actually completely agree with you here, but i dont see how this applies to choosing meat as the new currency. it only implies that leaving the issue of communication with the mothership, should be left ambiguous. if nobody can communicate with the mothership, how would they have any information about what happened to it. it makes perfect sense. but the decision to adopt meat as the new currency was made by the PC and the NPC's, so making that a mystery seems like a stretch, kuz he could ask anyone "hey why not dirt for currency?" and they would say " thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard! meat is great! Dirt is dumb" and the question would be answered...

**corection
I made a mistake, Quantum computers use "sub atomic" particles (the particles that make up an atom) to do the calculations, not atoms themselves. sorry.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 08:43:02 PM by dbrooksby »
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dbrooksby

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2014, 07:14:06 PM »

On this topic, all I can say is we haven't really talked about it too much, so it could go anywhere from here.  ;)

The original idea was to switch to another currency once you establish trade with other colonies/natives...but, that's pretty hard to balance, and we don't know if people will actually like that.

thanks, its good to know were still looking for ideas, hopefully discussions like this one can help determine what people will and will not actually like! most people iv herd ether don't care or want a barter system, but i can see how implementing a functioning barter system would be difficult. especially for multiplayer...

great game by the way!
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yarnevk

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2014, 10:00:25 PM »

dbrooskby

That is exactly why you do not explain the McGuffin, it waste time on unnecessary plot points, it changes neither the plot nor the mechanics nor the game to say it is meat stored in quantum storage at all.   That link (which was just a random hit) says they ARE researching how to get qubit storage for information processing and what they can learn from atomic/molecular quantum entanglement , because CPUs include memory for storing things, state storage is a fundamental requirement for computing devices that process information. Molecular structure is most certainly information that can be stored and manipulated because several hundred years in the future anything is possible, IBM is already researching how to print atoms even now.  If you want to scan something and save it somewhere you need the quantum building blocks that make up the atom.    But there is no point in arguing it because it does not matter anymore than knowing what the physics of a transporter was in star trek, it is not relevant to this game how it works.  All they need to say is, it is a sci-fi game so it works because it works.   It is completely irrelevant to a future sci-fi game that a state university is not really sure how all this works today and may not know that for decades.

And even if the game decided to give plot details about what a quantum storage and computing device is,  then exactly like I said some random on the internet who does not understand future science will say they got the science wrong, which is exactly what you just did and exactly why you should never explain the McGuffin.  Again it is not relevant to explain the device in the game, it is not lazy writing or that they could not be bothered to do any research, it is actually because to do so makes the writing worse rather than better.   

Why would the colonists even know how their replicator works, do you even know what technology your flash memory uses or is it just a piece of plastic and metal you stick in your computer to store stuff with.  Because really the only people in the world that knows that are the ones that invented the tech, everyone else just uses it and knows it works.  I did not need to know what the technology of the crystal skull was when I watched Indiana Jones go get it, I just needed to know it was some alien storage thing and it was the reason for the adventure, and this game could just as well say we use crystal skulls too because it does not matter at all what they use.  That is why it is called a McGuffin because it is a McGuffin and that is all that matters and all you need to know to enjoy the plot.

Now lets say they did have Gerdy explain this to you while she has you gather meat (even though she is a nutritionist and would not have a clue), as soon as someone sees a paragraph they go TL;DR click and move on ignoring the plot; and that is for those people that did not skip her tutorial quests everybody else just noticed it had massive inventory and meat was money rather than dropped coins and said OK I know how to play this game now, moving on.  And then the guy that does read it goes on the forum and says they got their future science all wrong, and the devs then go just delete this paragraph as it is pointless anyways.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:54:17 PM by yarnevk »
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Trent

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Re: The Meat Coin
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2014, 11:40:41 PM »


The original idea was to switch to another currency once you establish trade with other colonies/natives...but, that's pretty hard to balance, and we don't know if people will actually like that.

This is close to what I suggested in the other thread - a barter system to begin with and then a common currency once your colony has the power and stability to negotiate such a thing. Id love to see it - especially in adventure/ multiplayer because trade and currency are often the biggest issue when two groups of people form an alliance.

Meat as a currency doesn't work for me, regardless of any technology that allows it.   No society would ever adopt something with such an unstable supply as its currency.  The same goes for any of the other resources you can just go out and gather.   

To start with, a barter system is more realistic and I think would be more balanced and fun as well.
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